Talk: Whiterose

Why the gender neutral pronouns for white rose? She's a woman; even the actor who plays her uses she/her pronouns when discussing her. PhanAwesomeness (talk) 11:00, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

They emphasize the ambiguous nature of the character. They're also appropriately used with LGBTQIA characters. --LeverageGuru (talk) 18:48, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

The gender-neutral pronouns would make sense if the character's gender was ambiguous, or if the character went by those pronouns, but white rose has been confirmed as female by both the actor and director, both of which use she/her pronouns for her. Elliot also refers to her with she/her pronouns in the show. Thus, it would make more sense for white rose's wiki page to have she/her pronouns, since those are her pronouns. PhanAwesomeness (talk) 00:09, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

What's the real agenda here? You're not even familiar enough with the character to spell her name correctly. Edit warring is not the answer. The article is now locked, and the issue needs to be hashed out here. --LeverageGuru (talk) 03:48, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

The real agenda is that I would like to see whiterose referred to with the correct pronouns. As for the misspelling, I'm on mobile, so it autocorrected to white rose automatically. I am familiar with the character; I've watched every episode of mr robot. Addressing whiterose with gender neutral pronouns is also kind of transphobic, as it implies she is not truly a woman. PhanAwesomeness (talk) 19:52, August 9, 2016 (UTC)

Hey guys - this is my first wikia edit, I wanted to add Minister Zhang's first name to the post when I came across this talk. Maybe I can help settle the matter: you are both right.

- Whiterose is a trans woman. She is female. 

However, concurrently, in another "multiverse/timeline" Minister Zhi Zhang, absolutely (and unfortunately for him) is male.  And in the context of this "dimension/universe" in which he exists, I think it would be incorrect to refer to him with anything other than male pronouns. 

The "character" has MORE THAN ONE IDENTITY and lives in two distinct worlds. For this reason, it would seem justfitied for "Whiterose" and "(Minister) Zhi Zhang" to have disctinct character posts, no? I haven't looked for set precedent on other wikias yet but gender aside maybe we could think of it like this:

Whiterose is Super(wo)man;

Minister Zhang is Clark Kent; and

Zhi Zhang is Kal-el

I personally don't mind the they pronoun, but there are definitely many opinions about it. I don't think it should be seen as necessarily transphobic to use, but it seems to me that Whiterose and Zhang each have binary genders. 

Impresaria (talk) 19:44, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

The actor who plays Whiterose, BD Wong, has stated that Minister Zhang is Whiterose's costume. So, while "Minister Zhang" appears male to everyone else, she is actually female, regardless of appearance. She's a woman impersonating a man. If she was a cisgender woman impersonating a man to be more powerful, would you refer to her with he/him pronouns? PhanAwesomeness (talk) 20:38, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘This is going to be thorny because we don't know the characters well. I've locked the article for the time being because of the edit warring, and until this resolves itself. That may take time, perhaps the remainder of the season, so everyone needs to be patient. It's a wiki and a television show, and as such, both are fluid. We also have to remember that this is a character, not a real person, and as such is evolving at an accelerated, but controlled, pace.

Yes, BD Wong uses she, but it's also clear that Sam Esmail is playing with gender binaries as well as gender roles. That makes portrayal of the character in written form complex (I started the next couple sentences with she, then flipped to xe for clarity). Minister Zhang definitely lives as a man much of xyr life, but identifies as a woman. That's a choice, the reasons for which we can speculate about (given the attitudes and policies of the Chinese), but can't really know. The conversation with Dom makes clear that xe lives in hiding except with a choice few, but the interaction with Phillip Price suggests there is an advantage to that as well. This is a complex character, and in written form, binaries don't work, and thus far, neither Zhang nor Whiterose has used one.

Gender-neutral pronouns were developed in academia as a way to refer to people without traditional binaries. They grew from the feminist community's distain for gender-neutral being the male pronoun, but were quickly embraced by the LGBTQIA community as an alternative to traditional binaries. I see them in daily use all the time; in fact, some universities have adopted policies regarding gender-identity and written gender pronouns as a means of being supportive of all students. In this instance, they both serve the narrative and portray the confused nature of Whiterose/Zhang's identity. Much of the episode played with yin and yang; the two sides of ourselves. That was part of why I chose the eschew the binaries in favor of gender-neutrality.

@PhanAwesomeness, it's easy to toss terms like transphobic around, but I urge extreme caution, both for reasons of civility, and because you're addressing someone you don't know with a background and motives you also don't know. Hypotheticals are pointless; we can only suppose what we'd do. We can't know. Please maintain a harmonious approach to this as we go forward, and bear in mind that we can't please everyone.

@Impresaria, I can easily see either a second article for Zhang or a sub-section in the Whiterose article before long. At that point, the binaries will be more functional. --LeverageGuru (talk) 21:17, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

I don't think Whiterose identifing as a woman is really a choice, since being transgender is not a choice. I understand being outside the binary, but even Whiterose herself has used she pronouns ("every hacker has HER fixation"). I used the term transphobic because it is anti-trans to address a trans person by pronouns they no longer use. It's okay if you didn't know the trans person's pronouns, but once you know them, you should use them. In this case, the director, actor, and other characters within the show have all used she/her pronouns in regards to whiterose. In fact, BD Wong has even explicitly stated that "Minister Zhang" should be seen as Whiterose's costume, and not the other way around.

Basically, Whiterose is in the closet (to most people). She is still a woman, she just chooses not to out herself (which is understandable). PhanAwesomeness (talk) 02:23, August 11, 2016 (UTC)

First of all, I didn't say Whitehorse's choice was to identify as a woman. The choice was to remain closeted and retain her male identity. Second, we're not addressing her by a pronoun. We can't address her. She's not real, and the standards for real people don't necessarily apply. We're using gender-neutral pronouns to describe her. That's different; we often write about characters in literature differently than we might address/discuss real people. That's the function of gender-neutral pronouns. --LeverageGuru (talk) 02:29, August 11, 2016 (UTC)

Even though whiterose is not real, we can still call her by a pronoun, since she is a character. If we're addressing her by gender-neutral pronouns because she's not real, then why don't we address Elliot by gender-neutral pronouns? Why not Darlene? Those characters aren't real. It's important to use she/her pronouns in reference to whiterose, since those are the pronouns she uses. PhanAwesomeness (talk) 03:55, August 11, 2016 (UTC)

I agree with PhanAwesomness. Even the creator of the show uses she/her pronouns when referring to her. She is a woman, even if she utilizes other personas that have to present as male. She is a woman and uses she/her pronouns. As a trans person myself I find it very frustrating to see a trans character's pronouns being disrespected even if it's just on the wikia page. What is your issue with using she/her pronouns on her wikia page? Vvvelp (talk) 02:09, August 14, 2016 (UTC)

I think it's pretty clear the gender is not all that mistaken. @LeverageGuru you consistently, except in one instance, refer to Whiterose (correctly) as she. Tokee (talk) 12:34, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

I just hopped in to say I stopped reading the article after the first paragraph. It looked like a joke and it's barely readable (not a native english speaker). Just use "they" if you want a gender neutral pronoun? (Futonarmy (talk) 03:51, August 14, 2016 (UTC)

As a transgender woman I found the usage of Xe pronouns really confusing and upsetting. The article reads like an anti-SJW stab at Whiteroses's character, I've often had neo-pronouns thrown at me in such a manner by people who act like they're not transphobic yet make fun of trans people using language. The generally accepted neutral pronoun(in English in general) would be singular "They", and there are several different neopronouns that are only used when a person tells you their particular pronouns. If anything Ze/Zir is more common than Xe/Xir. As others have said(and while I have some issues with the character as a trans woman myself), the character has been stated to be a transgender woman by the creator & actor, and this article is unnecessarily confusing and misleading and only makes trans women more of a target. 

LeverageGuru, the information is clear enough. The director and primary writer of the series explicitly sys that Whiterose is a woman.(That’s the only thing that I want to convey about Whiterose, that she has a passion. ~Sam Esmail, Source material here. ) She appears as a woman, she uses she/her pronouns (as mentioned in another topic,) and is referred to by others in the series as she/her.

Is it so very hard for you to change I think 7-8 pronouns to ones that are more befitting of the character herself?

Araktor (talk) 00:37, August 19, 2016 (UTC)

Agreed with Araktor. I'm also a trans woman and this thread is BEYOND ridiculous. LeverageGuru, how many different ways can it be explained to you? Are you just far too stubborn to admit you're wrong? Here you have TWO trans women telling you that it's SHE and HER. The character is female.The character herself uses the female pronoun in her main quote about hacking time. Stop misgendering her. Gender-neutral pronouns are for those that identify as non-binary. I'm not sure if you're trying to appear as the most progressive guy in the room or what, but you're doing it wrong.Tallis161 (talk) 05:00, August 22, 2016 (UTC)

..and still nothing has been done? it's pretty clear what the consensus is, mister/miss admin. --Dirtbag ^Daryl 22:18, August 24, 2016 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that there is no reason to be using gender neutral pronouns for a character who clearly identifies as female and uses female pronouns in the show, and as male when assuming the Zheng persona. The issue of making a coherent and consistent character profile/s on this wikia is indeed a thorny one. The suggestion of two separate articles for the two personas of this character seemed a good one, but at the same time, they're the same person.

In today's gender culture they would probably fall under the 'genderfluid' umbrella (Whiterose is female while Minister Zheng is male), so maybe they should be refered to separately within the same article, using the appropriate genders when referring to the different personas. This shouldn't be difficult to do without causing confusion, considering Whiterose and Minister Zheng are fairly separate characters in the show. Teedubs (talk) 14:17, August 31, 2016 (UTC)

Alright, if you tuned into the aftershow tonight, you saw B.D. Wong say that Whiterose is, and I quote, "a trans woman disguised as a man, rather than a man disguised as a woman." He said Sam Esmail described Whiterose as a "real corporate-power Chinese lady." Everyone on the show referred to Whiterose with she/her pronouns. Not split with a male identity that uses he/his, not genderqueer, not genderfluid. A woman, that uses she/her pronouns, disguising herself as a man sometimes. This could easily be addressed in the article as something like, "When Whiterose is working as Minister of State Security for the Chinese government, she disguses herself as a man and uses the moniker Minister Zhang." I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, but you get the idea.

C'mon everyone. This is getting embarassing.  Yunglethe (talk) 04:55, September 1, 2016 (UTC)

Typo

In the final scene of “eps1.9_zer0-day.avi”, Whiterose arrives as Phillip Price's home...

Pronouns discussion aside, I'm pretty sure she isn't a building. — Nanaki 08:59, September 22, 2016 (UTC)